Transcript
Transcript: Reflections by Paul Tellier
[00:00:00 Montage of a series of images: people walking down busy streets; a Canadian flag waving on the side of a building; an aerial view of Parliament Hill and downtown Ottawa; the interior of a library; a view of Earth from space. Texts on screen: Leadership; Policy; Governance; Innovation; Review and Reflection. Produced by the Canada School of Public Service.]
Narrator: Public servants, thought leaders and experts from across Canada reflect on the ideas shaping public service: leadership, policy, governance, innovation and more. This is the Review and Reflection series, produced by the Canada School of Public Service.
[00:00:26 Paul Tellier appears on screen. Text on screen: Paul Tellier, former President and CEO, Canadian National and Bombardier Inc. | Former Clerk of the Privy Council, Government of Canada.]
Interviewer: Mr. Tellier, it is a great pleasure and a great honour to be here with you today. You were Clerk of the Privy Council, the highest-ranking public servant in the Government of Canada. You were president and CEO of Canadian National, the largest railway company in Canada, and also CEO of Bombardier. We'll start from the very beginning. Tell us, where were you born and how did your childhood and adolescence influence your leadership qualities later on?
Paul Tellier: I was born in a town that was a small town at that time, Joliette. My father was a lawyer, my grandfather was a lawyer, then a judge. Extraordinary, extraordinary parents. I was the fifth of a family of six. I wasn't the easiest. My father had extraordinary patience. After that, I went to Collège de Joliette,
[00:01:21 Image of Collège de Joliette.]
Paul Tellier: which was a classical college. After a couple of years, they thanked me for my services. I attended Collège Sainte-Marie in Montréal, run by the Jesuits.
[00:01:28 Image of Collège de Sainte-Marie, Montréal.]
Paul Tellier: After that, I went to finish my B.A., my Bachelor of Arts degree, at the University of Ottawa.
[00:01:35 Image from the University of Ottawa.]
Paul Tellier: It was a turning point because I really enjoyed the University of Ottawa.
[00:01:42 Paul Tellier appears on screen.]
Then, I decided to continue after my B.A., to do my law degree. My father told me, “Stay in Ottawa, the classes are small. Everyone will call you by your first name,” and so on. He knew some of the teachers who were there, and we were pampered. We had two Supreme Court judges teaching us. We had the Deputy Minister of Justice teaching us. It was different from today. There were many part-time teachers. We had the legal counsel to the House of Commons. So, I had always been interested in public affairs. Then, I did my law degree there. I came back here to Quebec to take my bar exam.
Interviewer: Tell us about your first jobs and how that also shaped what followed.
Paul Tellier: I was extremely fortunate, privileged; two jobs that come to mind. When I was a student at the University of Ottawa, I had a summer job, and I worked at the O'Keefe Brewery.
[00:02:49 Image of the O'Keefe Brewery.]
Paul Tellier: I handled 6,400 cases of 24 per work shift.
[00:02:57 Paul Tellier appears on screen.]
Paul Tellier: A production line: the beer arrived, I took the case; there was a guy in front of me doing the same thing; he took one, he put it on the pallet. I was doing the same thing on my side, and so on.
The boss was a terrible person, he was always shouting, and unpleasant. I realized that the only person who could protect our interests was the union leader on the floor. So, I developed good relationships and throughout my career, I never had any confrontation with the unions. In fact, there's a union leader who used to be here at CN, who lives in Saint-Sauveur now, and we talk, and so on. Then, when I left CN, he told me, “You were a son of a bitch, but damn, I respected you.”
Interviewer: That's the important thing. Wow!
Paul Tellier: That was a major one. Then, after that, when I arrived at the Université de Montréal . . .
[00:04:04 Image of the Université de Montréal.]
Paul Tellier: . . . when I started teaching, I was earning 8,300 dollars a year. I was married; I had a child.
[12:04:10 AM Paul Tellier appears on screen.]
Paul Tellier: The unions were looking for a professor to teach them constitutional law and administrative law, especially administrative law. The classes were held on Saturdays, one Saturday in Sorel and one Saturday in Sherbrooke. So, Sherbrooke, there was no highway. I had to go sleep there the night before. Obviously, we ended up at the motel. I was with the union leaders again. Those were extraordinary experiences, and they served me well for the rest of my career.
Interviewer: Extraordinary! At some point, you become a public servant. It's the seventies. Tell us about that context and how you became a public servant.
Paul Tellier: A bit by chance; I had never thought of becoming a public servant. After completing my articling, I came to the conclusion that I probably did not have the temperament to practise.
[00:05:09 Image of the University of Oxford.]
Paul Tellier: I went to Oxford for three years in public administration.
[00:05:15 Paul Tellier appears on screen.]
Paul Tellier: Then one day, I received a phone call from the dean of the law faculty who told me, “We would like to recruit you.” I accepted, I came to Montréal. As I was saying earlier, with a huge salary. Then, at the end of my first year, I received a phone call from Jean-Luc Pépin . . .
[00:05:34 Image of two men, one of whom is Jean-Luc Pépin.]
Paul Tellier: . . . who was an extraordinary man, who was himself . . . who had been a professor at the University of Ottawa, whom I did not know.
[00:05:39 Paul Tellier appears on screen.]
Paul Tellier: Then, Mr. Pépin told me, “I am looking for a chief of staff.” Back then, it was less pretentious, he said, “an executive assistant.” So, he came to see me in Ottawa. I went up with my wife. We parked. At that time security was not what it is today, so I parked at the doors of Parliament. I told Andrée, “It won't be long.” Ultimately, I spent three hours with Mr. Pépin, then he offered me the position of executive assistant, chief of staff in his office.
Back then, they were small offices, not a staff of 50 people like today. Mr. Pépin had three assistants: me, his main assistant, one who dealt with the county, and another who was at the ministry and dealt with correspondence.
The dean told me, “Listen, Paul, you've just arrived. You're writing, you're correcting first-year exams. You can't leave.” He said, “Listen, if you want to go work in Ottawa, go ahead, but you continue to teach.” But I told him, “Listen, I'll start.” “No, no.” He said, “We're going to concentrate your teaching, three hours of class on Monday morning.” So, on Monday morning I was teaching, then I went back to Ottawa to work with Mr. Pépin. And when the campaign arrived . . . so, I arrived in Mr. Pearson's time.
[00:07:01: Image of Mr. Pearson at his desk.]
Paul Tellier: Mr. Pépin was Pearson's minister; after that, he became Mr. Trudeau's minister.
[00:07:06 Image of Pierre-Elliott Trudeau.]
Paul Tellier: Following the campaign, Mr. Robertson, who was the Clerk of the Privy Council, said to me, “Paul, come and work with me. Mr. Trudeau is interested in reviewing the Constitution, and you can make a contribution, so come along.”
I left Mr. Pépin's office, but even then, I had absolutely no intention—to get back to your question—of becoming a permanent public servant. Then, I remained in the public service for 22 years.
[00:07:42 Image of Robert Bourassa.]
Paul Tellier: After a couple of years with Mr. Robertson, Mr. Bourassa, he and I were teaching the same group of students, more or less.
[00:07:47 Paul Tellier appears on screen.]
Paul Tellier: Mr. Bourassa was trying to convince me to run in the '70 election and I said no. And after the election, a week after the election, he said, “Listen, you work in the Privy Council office in Ottawa with Mr. Robertson. Why don't you come and work as an assistant clerk at the government secretariat in Quebec City?” I went there. It was a very nice experience. I knew nothing about Quebec administration. I arrived there in July, and then in October, it was the October Crisis and the death of the FLQ and the death of Mr. Laporte.
I went back to Ottawa afterwards. Then, Mr. Trudeau and Michael Pitfield, one of my predecessors, decided to set up ministries of state for science and a ministry of state for urban affairs. Then they asked me to create the urban affairs policy unit. I didn't know anything about it, but it was enjoyable. Then again there, at one point, I said to the dean, “Listen, I don't know when I'm going to come back.” So, I stopped teaching. Then, I moved on from one thing to another after urban affairs. It was one of the most difficult jobs I've had in the public service. Mr. Trudeau had decided to adopt the bilingualism act.
[00:09:24 Text on screen: History of the Official Languages Act. The first federal Official Languages Act is adopted, and it declares English and French to be the two official languages of Canada.]
Paul Tellier: All positions had to have a linguistic determination. French essential, English essential, which still exists today, optional.
[00:09:42 Paul Tellier appears on screen.]
Paul Tellier: We had to set up a team, create language tests, make sure there was a team to correct those tests and so on. We were starting from scratch. I did not want to and I had been summoned by Mr. Robertson, by the Secretary of the Treasury Board and the President of the Public Service Commission. I told him, “I'm not interested. I would like to be Assistant Deputy Minister for the Far North. That's what fascinates me.” They told me, “You'll never get that job until you do this one.”
It was truly a calling; I didn't have much of a choice. I did that and the reason, as I told you a moment ago, was that it was one of the most difficult jobs I've ever had. Imagine a team of 50, 60, I don't remember the exact numbers, who spend their day correcting language tests. So, there were many of these tests that were corrected; you put a grid over the questionnaire, then you counted the correct ones, the incorrect ones, and so on.
How did you motivate these people? That was the challenge, getting closer to all those people. Every two weeks, I would go for a beer with them on Friday nights. The offices were not far from the Skyline Hotel. I told them, “Let's go get a beer.” I started to go bowling with them. I had never been inside a bowling alley before, and so on. I took them fishing at Lac Saint-Jean. Then we would play pranks after that, because at Lac Saint-Jean, you catch ouananiche [Atlantic salmon], and the English speakers had trouble pronouncing “ouananiche”! So, that was an extremely difficult job.
After that, they appointed me Senior Assistant Deputy Minister for the Environment.
[00:11:49 Image of René Lévesque.]
Paul Tellier: Mr. Lévesque was elected Premier of Quebec in November 1976.
[00:11:55 Paul Tellier appears on screen.]
Paul Tellier: English Canada was extremely worried about what was happening. And then, Mr. Lévesque had already decided that there would be a referendum and so on. Mr. Trudeau and Mr. Robertson brought me in, then they told me, “We want you to put together a team to prepare the referendum campaign, and then the strategy.” How to explain to Canadians, and in particular to Quebecers, why it is advantageous for them to participate in the Canadian Federation and so on.
[00:12:28 Paul Tellier appears in full screen.]
Paul Tellier: So, I put in place a team of [eight] people, then a different sector. There too, I resisted. I said to Mr. Trudeau, “Why me?” He said, “Mr. Tellier,” because we always addressed each other formally. He said, “Mr. Tellier, you have been in Ottawa for several years and instead of skiing in Gatineau, you ski in Saint-Adèle, in the Laurentians, two and a half hours away.” He said, “You have kept roots in Quebec.” Then he said, “I need someone who knows the public service, who is comfortable in Quebec, and not someone who was born in Quebec, but who left it. You continue to be embedded in Quebec society.”
So I did that and it was very, very hard, very difficult, very demanding. There were some good individuals: Richard Dicerni, Pierre Lefebvre; people who didn't get tangled up in the details. They were making rapid progress.
Then, Mr. Clark arrived.
[00:13:37 Image of Joe Clark.]
Paul Tellier: Mr. Trudeau left. Mr. Clark arrived.
[00:13:43 Paul Tellier appears on screen.]
Paul Tellier: He said, “Paul, it's obvious that my name is not Pierre Trudeau and I don't come from Quebec, I come from Alberta, and my role in the upcoming referendum is going to be very different.” He said, “I'm told you're competent. You have dedicated yourself to this cause for two and a half years. Where would you like to go? I would like to appoint you Deputy Minister of the Environment.” I said, “Mr. Clark, do I have a choice?” I said, “If I had the choice, I would go to Indian Affairs and Northern Development.” He said, “Are you serious? It's one of the most difficult departments.” I said, “Yes, but I am fascinated. I have good relationships with Indigenous people. I like the North,” and so on. He said, “Okay.” I spent three years there.
Mr. Clark was defeated, the Liberals returned. I had Jean Chrétien as minister.
[00:14:38 Image of Jean Chrétien.]
Paul Tellier: I moved to the Department of Energy.
[00:14:41 Paul Tellier appears on screen.]
Paul Tellier: I spent three years there. And, in each place, there were crises: There was the oil crisis in '73; the oil crisis again in '79, the national energy policy that shocked the West because they taxed producers to compensate, finance consumers and so on.
Then, after all that, one day, I received a phone call from Mr. Mulroney.
[00:15:15 Image of Brian Mulroney.]
Paul Tellier: He said, “I would like you to become Clerk of the Privy Council.
[00:15:22 Paul Tellier appears on screen.]
Paul Tellier: Do you think you can work with me?” The Prime Minister was asking the wrong question. “Are you able to work with me?” I told him, “I will always tell you exactly where you stand. Always.” He said, “That's exactly what I want.” He kept his word, and I always told him.
I remember one scene. I was waiting for him for a meeting at his office after Question Period. He had gotten angry, in a way, during Question Period. He came back with the people from his office, and the people were telling him, “You were good,” and so on. I was sitting there, on the windowsill. I didn't say a word. The political staff left. He said, “Paul, you haven't said a word.” I said, “No, what you're saying in the House of Commons doesn't make any damn sense.” Then, of course, he defended himself. Then in the evening at 9:00 pm, he called me and said, “Paul, you were right.”
Mr. Mulroney was always like that. He didn't try to change my mind or give me my opinion. And I was paid for that.
And, often, he would remind me, he would say, “Don't forget, I have two jobs: Prime Minister, party leader.” So, you are advising me as head of government.” But he said, “Don't forget, there's another dimension to this.” I said, “Okay.” And Mr. Robertson came up with an extraordinary phrase that you cannot translate into French: “You have to be policy-oriented, but politically sensitive.”
Interviewer: So, you remained clerk for several years.
Paul Tellier: Seven years.
Interviewer: And during a really difficult period. There was starting to be a lot of concern about the deficit and the debt. The Nielsen Report came out with recommendations. Tell us about that period, your challenges, and also the opportunities you had during those seven years.
Paul Tellier: The Nielsen Report, Mr. Mulroney, as is often the case with Conservative prime ministers, he and his colleagues arrived thinking that all senior public servants were Liberals and that we were all in the Liberal camp. Then, he gave Mr. Nielsen, whom he had appointed Deputy Prime Minister, the mandate to look at how the public service could be reformed.
Some good things came out of it. This was one of the serious, simplified, consolidated studies. Eliminating waste, etc. So, there were things that were put in place quickly. But Mr. Nielsen left quite quickly, a year later. Mr. Mazankowski, who replaced him, was diametrically opposed. Then that distrust that existed changed because an excellent relationship developed between ministers, deputy ministers, senior public servants and so on. When you are a minister, when you are a deputy minister or assistant deputy minister, when a minister succeeds, you succeed with them, it's a team. So, Mr. Mulroney appreciated the support he had from the senior public service.
Yes, those were fascinating years, different crises, another attempt to reduce spending. Then, of course, the negotiations with the Americans. Meech Lake, obviously. Meech Lake, on which we spent a lot, a lot of time. Mr. Mulroney believed in it so, so much. These were very heartfelt movements, and he dedicated himself to them; he truly believed that it was possible to amend the Constitution so that everyone would be satisfied, and so on.
Those were some beautiful times. He's the best boss I've ever had because, while extremely demanding, he was also very sensitive and very kind. He called my house very often, whether it was my daughter or my son or my wife; he would say to my daughter or my son, “How did it go in class today, how are you doing in your studies?” He would apologize to my wife. It was always like that.
A story I've told often because it illustrates the case well. There had been some kind of crisis. I was with three colleagues at 24 Sussex. We had spent the evening there. Then, we left, it was 10:30. And he came to walk us to the door, and then he said, “Guys, feel free to take the rest of the day off.” The impact it had, the guys in the car were saying, “Damn, he's a good guy.” And they had just finished working until 10:30. But that's one thing I really appreciated about him.
Interviewer: You spoke of rigour, discipline, and not getting tangled up in the details. We can also sense a lot of humility, a sense of humour. Do you think these are values that have been somewhat lost, or do these values still exist?
Paul Tellier: Yes and no. I think we probably attach less importance to human resources today. There was great concern about recruiting the cream of the crop of university graduates. This was the case with major universities. The classes, often three of the 10 best, joined the Canadian government. It was, I wouldn't say fashionable, but going to work at the Department of Justice, the Department of Finance, the Department of Foreign Affairs, was very prestigious, and I think we've lost that.
When I happen to talk to students, I tell them, “Whatever career you choose, the most uncontrollable element is the government you'll have underfoot. They can affect you through legislation, regulations and taxation. So, whether you become an engineer or whatever; an architect, any business; you sell bread, the price of the bread, the weight of the bread, the composition of the bread are controlled. Go into the public service for a couple of years, you'll see how it works from the inside. I think we've lost that a bit.
For me, I didn't hesitate; I didn't have a plan to become a public servant, but the people I met when I arrived were of exceptional quality. So, you learned a lot. So, I think we need to revive this a bit. Very important. In that sense, the School is of paramount importance, yes.
Interviewer: You worked for Mr. Trudeau, Sr., and you also worked for Mr. Mulroney. Tell us about their leadership qualities, how were they different? How did it affect you, working for them as a senior public servant?
Paul Tellier: In Mr. Trudeau's case, everyone who worked with him, closely or remotely, was impressed by his intellect and culture. He wasn't a man who was good at saying “thank you.”
[00:24:51 Paul Tellier appears in full screen.]
Paul Tellier: One day, I told him; we had worked late. I had been brought a briefing note one Sunday afternoon at 4:00 pm. Then he returned it to me. And the first comment that was at the top of the page, “If you are going to use that word often, then learn to spell it.” There were five or six of us who had worked on it. And people were coming into my office on Monday morning and saying, “Did you get the boss's feedback?” Yes, yes. They were saying, “Show us his note,” because he annotated a lot. “I'll summarize it for you.” “No, no, show me his note.” Then he saw the note at the top of the page. They were furious.
It was first and foremost his intellect that impressed people. And he worked very closely with certain colleagues, Mr. Robertson, Michael Pitfield, Marc Lalonde. When you saw one of those ministers near Mr. Trudeau, you would say, “That's the priority.”
Mr. Mulroney attached much more importance to people and to interpersonal relationships.
Recently, when we were talking about the difficulties, the challenges of negotiating with the person who is in the White House today, we were saying, “If we had a prime minister or if we have a prime minister, we will see, time will tell, who would be able to establish a relationship, a personal relationship first.” Because in any professional relationship, there is first and foremost a personal connection. So, either I find Mélanie nice, or I don't. Good. Then I react accordingly, then you respond accordingly, and so on.
[00:27:08 Image of Mr. Mulroney and Mr. Reagan shaking hands.]
Paul Tellier: So, Mr. Mulroney and Mr. Reagan developed an extremely close relationship.
[00:27:15 Paul Tellier appears on screen.]
Paul Tellier: This continued with Mr. Bush and so on.
[00:27:18 Image of George Bush and Brian Mulroney in a winter landscape, followed by an image of Bill Clinton and Jean Chrétien shaking hands.]
Paul Tellier: Then Jean Chrétien with Bill Clinton. And it continues today, and so on.
[00:27:26 Paul Tellier appears on screen.]
Paul Tellier: They were two very different leadership styles. And that touch of Mr. Mulroney's had a considerable impact. There are people who have had hard knocks in life, who were Conservatives or who were harsh critics of Mr. Mulroney. Then Mr. Mulroney would call them and say, “Listen, you're going through a difficult time” and so on, “if I can help you.” Then there are those among these people; they will tell you this, then they cry about it. So, they were two very, very different styles. Right.
Interviewer: So, Mr. Mulroney, when he came to power, he is known for having said that public servants, it didn't work. He was going to quickly give them running shoes, then a pink slip, as they say in English, that is to say something to say bye-bye. But ultimately, things changed, as you mentioned. So, tell us about that. How did Mr. Mulroney's perception of public servants change?
Paul Tellier: He got to know the public servants, especially the senior public servants. Then he realized that these people had a big contribution to make, and they were there to help him. He had a program, but the program, it wasn't something the people in the ridings would implement. So, I remember at the beginning, when we were working, some people, including Mazankowski, would say, “He's a damn liberal.” Then I would say, “Mr. Mazankowski, as far as I know, you worked a lot with Jim Wright?” “Yes, but Jim, it's not the same.” So, they got to know us, and that we were there to help. And then, there were no “pink slips.”
Mr. Mulroney removed three senior public servants? Four senior public servants? One, and we can mention him, is Ed Clark, who had been the architect of the national energy policy. He was a very, very, very bright guy, Ed is exceptional, and so on. He was one of the victims. That was before I arrived as Clerk of the Privy Council. Another one was a deputy minister who had shown poor judgment regarding something. But apart from that, there were very, very few, maybe three.
Therefore, the public service, and the senior public service in particular, had proven itself. And this apprehension that politicians had, it disappeared.
Interviewer: Mr. Mulroney did two extremely unpopular things: the GST, the Goods and Services Tax, and the free trade agreement with the United States, which was unpopular at the time. So, tell us about this ability to make big, unpopular changes like that. Especially since we have this impression that we have lost that ability to do those great things. How did you manage to do that as a clerk at that time, those two things?
Paul Tellier: You are absolutely right. We have lost a little bit, governments have lost a little bit of that desire, that will, that conviction to do things. I think there are politicians who say, “We want to be elected prime minister because there are things we want to do.” There are others who want to become prime minister. Mr. Mulroney knew what he wanted. So, he realized that just the sales tax and income tax wasn't enough. Then, he worked with Michael Wilson on the GST. And he knew very well that his caucus, tax here, then tax that. So, first he convinced them that a tax was needed. And then after that, well, the pressure started: “We're going to exempt this, we're going to exempt that.” We had to resist that.
First and foremost, he needed political support. He was exceptional at doing that. He always said, “The cabinet meeting on Thursday is important, but the caucus on Wednesday is even more so, because I am also a party leader.” He would spend a lot of time preparing. It's well known, on the phone, calling, to convince, and so on.
Then, regarding free trade, it was the same thing.
If we compare that, for example, to Mr. Trudeau; Mr. Trudeau had substance, but for him, it was the Constitution: Doing things for Indigenous people, and so on. But these are people who came into politics with projects, and then more or less, “Come hell or high water, we're going to do it.” And he supported Michael Wilson and, it's interesting in this context, something you may know, Mélanie, is that the guy who defended the GST before the parliamentary committee was Michael Sabia.
[00:33:59 Image of Michael Sabia, speaker at an Investor Forum event. Text on screen: At the time of this interview, Michael Sabia had just been appointed Clerk of the Privy Council of Canada.]
Interviewer: I didn't know that. But I want you to talk about your role as well.
[00:34:06 Paul Tellier appears on screen.]
Interviewer: Because you were part of that implementation. First, there is the policy behind it, but then there is the implementation. How was this done? Because it was even expected to be unpopular within the public service. It's not easy to do those big, difficult things. What did you do to . . .?
Paul Tellier: First, he involved us a lot. Mr. Mulroney involved us a lot in the decision-making process. So, the GST, a meeting, his chief of staff—I went through several—his chief of staff, the deputy minister of finance, the minister of finance, Mr. Mulroney and me. And the file progressed. I was the link between the political level and the government apparatus. So, I quickly set up a committee of deputy ministers, a meeting of deputy ministers. Every Wednesday morning, I convinced my colleagues to hold a meeting of deputy ministers. If we didn't need it, we cancelled it. I told my colleagues: 8:00 am and it will last 60 minutes. It will start at 8:00 am and will end 60 minutes later. We would go around the table. I would say, “These are the Prime Minister's priorities: the GST.” Then, the department of revenue or other departments: “What is your role? What are your concerns?” And so on. We were there. And, before leaving at 9:00 am, everyone had a chance, if there was a file that was progressing poorly and so on, to bring it up. Occasionally, someone would say, “Paul, I'll talk to you for a minute, but can I see you afterwards for 10 minutes?” There were things like that.
So, the apparatus worked well, very well. And I had good colleagues who would follow up at the ministerial level, and then they would go into more detail, and so on. So, that conveyor belt worked very, very well. I don't want to be partisan because this isn't a partisan comment, but this is the harshest criticism I have of Justin Trudeau, because he has never understood the importance of this conveyor belt. He created a huge prime minister's office and someone very high up in that office once said, “I like deputy ministers because they are very good at taking minutes.”
Interviewer: So, let's turn the page. When you finished your career as clerk, you moved to the private sector and became president and CEO of Canadian National.
[00:37:23 Image of the CN building.]
Interviewer: Which is today a very profitable, very respected company.
[00:37:28 Paul Tellier appears on screen.]
Interviewer: It's the largest railway company in Canada. But at that time, things were not going well at all. So, you had a mandate to make a huge change. How did you manage to make that change? How did you make that transition to the private sector?
Paul Tellier: When Mr. Mulroney offered me the position of CEO of Canadian National, I said, “Yes, Prime Minister, on the condition that I have a mandate to privatize.” To privatize, and then convince people like Mélanie to put their savings into buying shares of Canadian National, something had to be done with the company, which was a huge bureaucracy.
So, it was a railway that functioned well, but there was no sense of urgency. You were telling the customers, well, if we arrive on Monday, we'll arrive on Monday, otherwise we'll arrive on Friday. No sense of urgency, no concern for financial results. There's no problem, Paul. If we lose 100 million, which was the case, the Treasury Board will give me the cheque. That needed to change. So, first of all, the individuals; and internally, in any large bureaucracy, public sector, private sector, there are people who are frustrated because things are not going their way. When I started talking about changes, some people said, “Well no, Paul, you can't do that.” Many people said, “Paul, I like what (you're saying),” and so on.
So, we identified the agents of change. The agents, the individuals who wanted to advocate for change, who were frustrated, and so on. New blood. My best decision was Michael Sabia, who I recruited; Claude Mongeau, who later became executive vice-president of finance, succeeded me afterwards. So, focus on results.
On the first day, I met with the union leaders. My colleagues said, “Paul, you don't know anything. What do you want? You're going to get eaten alive?” No, no, no, no, no, I just want to explain it to them in a very simple way. The example I used was this: If you get home in the evening, and your spouse says to you, “We have a big problem because we're spending too much on the credit card.” What are you going to do? You look at the list of expenses, then you say, “Where can we make cuts?” I arrived, I looked at this, there's 42 % there, that's the employees, or 44 %, I don't remember the exact figure. Something needs to be done. So, we made many, many, many cuts. And we reduced it from roughly 36,000 to, I don't know what, to 20,000 or so.
And we said it frankly, I said it at the first meeting with the union leaders. And it created enthusiasm. Good management is first and foremost about psychology. So, the day I got there, I was in the office, and I said to the deputy who was there, my predecessor, “Where do the senior managers eat?” They said, “There is a dining room.” I said, “What?” “Yes, they have a dining room.” I went to see the guy who was in charge of the dining room. He seemed like a nice guy, I chatted with him, then I said, “Don't worry, but we're closing the dining room.” “When?” he said. “Today,” I said.
Well, that sent a message. That's when people saw that it was serious. We eliminated six or eight vice-presidential positions. It was done on the same day. Obviously, that sent a message. And, at the same time, showed that you could get things done quickly. I was in the elevator one day, the little children, there was a daycare, the little children and all that. I started chatting with a couple of parents. Then the woman said, “Mr. Tellier, are you coming?” I said yes. She said, “If you ever have the time, I would like to show you the daycare. We've been trying to expand it for six months and it's going nowhere.” I said, “I'll go right now.” And the next day the project was approved.
But all the people who were looking for positions said, “Tellier is interested in that. He didn't get caught up in the details.”
Good advice I had received from Mr. Pépin. I had yelled at someone in front of him, then he said to me, “Paul, you used poor judgment; 99.9 % of people function much more, much better with a smile than with a kick.” He said, “You just showed poor judgment. Because I know the person you were talking to. So, no threats or anything, create a team spirit.” So, we moved on; we wrote a cheque to the government for 2.5 billion, and today it's worth a little over 80 billion.
Interviewer: So, there are many parallels when you arrived at CN as a leader, you wanted to change everything, and you brought along with you someone who is important to us named Michael Sabia, who is our Clerk of the Privy Council today. And there, you had a mandate to bring about change and it had to happen. It's a little bit like what's happening right now. We have a prime minister who is facing enormous geopolitical and economic difficulties, who wants change and who has brought Michael Sabia along with him to implement and think about all this change. So, what advice would you have for Michael Sabia, but also for all the public servants who will have to try to implement these changes?
Paul Tellier: First of all, Michael Sabia doesn't need advice. He has an extraordinary strategic mind, and I don't think, and I have said this publicly, I don't think that the Prime Minister, Mr. Carney, could have chosen a better individual in Canada for that position given that, one, he knows the public service; two, he knows the financial world; three, he has managed large companies, across the street, it's Hydro, and so on.
I think the letter he sent to all the public servants was excellent.
[00:44:16 On screen, copy of Michael Sabia's message. Text on screen: Message from Michael Sabia, Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet. July 7, 2025 – Defence Stories. Focus.]
Paul Tellier: Focus, concentrate on priorities and so on; second, reduce bureaucracy, efficiency; and third, accountability. That's what needs to be done.
[00:44:34 Paul Tellier appears on screen.]
And we, the people, taxpayers, Canadian citizens are inclined to blame governments. But when something is lacking, someone is to blame. Why, for example, is it that today there are two-year delays in approving visas or other things? Why? Well, there is a whole hierarchy. There is a minister, there is a deputy minister, there are assistant deputy ministers, directors general, and so on. They must be held accountable, both collectively and individually.
The passport issue is all well and good, it's easy to say, “Yes, there was COVID,” and so on. Yes, but there were people who could have thought of that. So, it can be attributed, which is the last point in Michael's note, it's very important, and people are taking responsibility. I always used to say, “Listen, you have a job to do. If you don't do it, we'll move you out and get someone else to do it. Because if there's no work to be done, you shouldn't be on the payroll.”
So, I think that's it: creating, recreating that energy and that sense of excellence. This is very important. It's very important. And, we haven't talked about it, but the big difference between CN and my experience at Bombardier is that here, there was no resistance. We could see, there, we were losing 100 million, etc. Bombardier, when I wanted to make changes, people said, “Paul, we didn't know anything about airplanes. Now we are the third biggest player in the world.” It's difficult, when you were very good, to tell people, “Now we have to change because we're not as good anymore.” Whereas here, we started from a much weaker base, and it was easier. This is one of the challenges Michael will face, because in the public service, there have been exceptional people; that's what happened, and now we have to rebuild that.
Interviewer: Well, thank you very much for this interview, but also for your service to Canadians. It was a real pleasure to have you with us today. Please keep talking with us. We need to hear from you. A huge, huge thank you.
Paul Tellier: Thank you, Mélanie. It was a pleasure meeting you.
[00:47:00 The CSPS logo appears.]
[00:47:03 Text appears on screen: canada.ca/school.]
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